Paul Tyler: There's several people I know trying to come in on this..but I think this is, I mean, it's unfair for Dr. Nash, it's actually really marked more for Dr. Miles, I don't know if you want to make a comment on this one ? Not at this...no wait a minute... yes please do come up.

Brian Lush (Ex Mayor of Camelford): Dr. Nash is my GP. I retired to the Pines of Davidstow in 1987 and in the February of 1988 I began gradually to suffer from short term memory loss and lack of co-ordination and aching limbs. One incident occurred which resulted in a fall and having seven stitches inserted into a scalp wound by Dr. Nash, I was also feeling very lethargic and run down at this time. I was referred by Dr. Nash to Bodmin Hospital where I saw a psychologist who diagnosed anxiety due to having had early retirement. I disagreed with this diagnosis and having not been at work due to injuries sustained a few years ago. From then on I used to joke "it must be something they're putting in the water here that's having this affect on me. I thought I was going mad at the time. After the main July incident I was informed that the aluminium sulphate mechanism had failed the previous February and no one was aware until the main incident, and put my symptoms down to that fact.

(Applause.)

Paul Tyler: Now that is a point that is a very important point (more applause) and one that hasn't been addressed yet this morning and I don't know whether anybody's in a position to do so but there was undoubtedly at least a dr.. it wasn't a dress rehearsal but there was an incident of some sort earlier that year. I don't know if Peter Smith can put some...

Peter Smith: Anne Arhens is not here is she ?

Female Voice: No she had to go

Paul Tyler: She had to go I think

Douglas Cross: I know about that one.

Peter Smith: She, she received..... you know about that Doug don't you?

Douglas Cross: Yeah.. two weeks before they, they er, the swimming pool was so acid that when people jumped in and swam in the swimming pool they had to get out because they suffered burns. It was the same sort of incident two...

Peter Smith: She was compensated for that.

Douglas Cross: Yeah

Paul Tyler: I, I'm anxious t, to, I mean..all these issues are inter-related it's very difficult to keep them apart, but I do really want if we can to see if there's anything more from the point of view of those directly responsible for people's health here..

Peter Smith: Paul if we could finish the answer to this question here about toe nails...you asked Dr. Miles to reply...

Paul Tyler: Yeah..b..I.. Dr. Miles said he couldn't...

Douglas Cross: If he can't then I will...

Michael Meacher: I mean has there actually been no investigation just to take this one particular symptom, which is quite a drastic one...

(Tape ran out.)

[Mr Meacher was asking if there had been any investigations into the health issues]

Afternoon Session

Paul Tyler: ....s morning on the er health issues. I think we have given a very fair assessment or have been given a fair assessment of what improvements have taken place in the Drinking Water Inspectorate since the Lowermoor incident What I don't think we've really explored to the full are the concerns that are obviously expressed, indeed have been expressed by the minister himself about delays in getting the information that many of us have been seeking for many years. As I've said to one or two people during the informal break, if there is this information vacuum just as with physics, there is a sort of law of media physics. That vacuum is filled by all sorts of theories - some of them perhaps reasonably reputable, some less so. We had, in this area, for all too many years after the Lowermoor Incident, a vacuum of really effective, efficient, and reliable information, and as a result a lot of misinformation became available. I hope we are beginning now to get a great deal more information that we can rely upon. We were able to pose some questions this morning and other questions have been posed in both written and verbal form in the past. I don't expect the Minister to be able to answer them all after all he is a Minister from the Dept. of the Environment, but he has given us today a public undertaking that he will take back to his colleagues in the Dept. of Health concerns, anxieties, and remaining questions on these issues. Would anybody like to come in on that particular aspect?

Yes please..

Ray Bowler: One question I'd like to start with.. I heard from somebody else, I haven't heard it myself today, there was an announcement on the news at midday that you are quoted as saying that there would definitely not be a public enquiry. Have the press represented your words accurately?

Paul Tyler: Me?

Michael Meacher: (astonished) No, no, no, this is directed at me. Well you heard what I said, you were here at the beginning weren't you and you heard what I said in my opening remarks. What I, what I said and what I've been saying since is that the purpose of a public enquiry is basically two-fold, one is to establish the facts - I think they're totally known.

The facts.. I'll come on... the long term health consequences I think is another matter and that, that's really what I've picked up from this meeting, I think this is very very serious and not properly investigated, but the facts of what happened on the 6th of July 1988 no one disputes. The second is to learn the lessons so that such a tragic incident never occurs again. Now, you've heard Owen Hydes and myself.. I, I'm you know, reasonably satisfied, you can never be totally content but I'm reasonably satisfied that I think the new procedures in place should not let that happen again.

But...I think there is an issue and that's why I'm saying I think a public enquiry is not appropriate, but... what I am going to go back...and I've said I'm going to go back to colleagues in the Dept. of Health and say that there are very serious issues and I'll just mention four which have come up and maybe there are a lot more. One is this question of people being over sensitised to aluminium so that now even when they come into contact with er quantities which are within the tolerable limits it produces allergies and eczema.

Now that's certainly very serious because the body has been so over saturated that it can no longer cope, that's a very serious matter. Secondly...again I, its never been brought to my attention but I think it was you and your colleague Doug Cross next door who were talking about the breakdown product of aluminium sulphate is sulphuric acid which could have dissolved the detritions at the bottom of the tank um and that the long term consequences of that, I've no idea.. I'm mean I, I'm not...unlike you I don't have any specialist skills, but I mean that is certainly something which does need I think the most thorough analysis of what are likely or expected to be the long term consequences.

Liz Sigmund raised the question of fingernails and toe nails coming off. How many cases did that happen? Is it still conceivably still happening? And fourthly. I've just been told, which is incredibly distressing, that a very high proportion perhaps a third of children now in there first year of secondary school, are on the special needs register. Now if the national figure is, is I don't know something of the order of 5% and it's 30, 35% here - that needs some explaining. And the question is whether all these separate bits of information do add up to a total picture.

Now, as I say, Paul keeps talking about and I think he's absolutely right, that people, after this trauma that's happened, that the most immediately important thing is that people get the care and attention they need. That's the first thing. But secondly, people do want a full and total picture of the long-term health effects so far as they can possibly be known. And once they're known and out in the public domain we can all try and face up to it. What has happened has happened we can't change that, but we can try and deal with it, knowing that all of those facts are available and that the best information available on which to act is now known. Now that's what I think needs addressing, and my view is that's probably not a public enquiry, but it does require some further action.

R. Bowler: Right, well, if its not a public enquiry, will we be given access to the process of law again to bring it out into the open?

Michael Meacher: Well, of course, you have access -of course, you as a body or as individuals have access to the courts to take action in any way you wish but I know it's a very expensive process.

B Pentecost: No, our legal aid was taken away...

Nigel Jones: And the decision was made, which disallowed us from moving forwards to air the health issues.

Michael Meacher: But...

Paul Tyler: Right, listen, no, let's just be quite clear we can't start, obviously, here and now discussing the merits of a legal case, but I do understand there are continuing possibilities, I don't put it any stronger than that, on behalf of those who were minors at the time, and legal aid IS available to them. Let's have one or two more questions, yes, the lady here.

Thyroid Woman: Why should we have to fight when it's obviously been proved that things have happened? Why should we have to fight for a legal case again, why shouldn't it all just be put into place for us so that we get a) the recognition that we suffered illness - and I've got thyroid problems and ME and everything else, that a lot of other people have got - and not be sort of ridiculed when we go to our doctors. We shouldn't have to fight, we can't fight any more. We should have this given to us on a plate and I'm sure we're not going to be given this on a plate unless there is some sort of a public enquiry and somebody has to be accountable and then the process will be put into operation. You know, it, it, it, just sort of saying oh yes this should happen, and that this should have happened, but I'm sure it won't happen unless somebody has to stand up and be counted and be made to do it.

Paul Tyler: Let's try and see how many we can get, how many contributions we can get and ask the Minister... come back in a minute... Doug...

Douglas Cross: The alternative could possibly be a Judicial Review... The trial with the South West Water Authority was extraordinary, I was never called, I know P.C. Webb who was a material witness at the time was never called - a lot of people were never called. The evidence that was presented in that trial was incredibly restricted.

Nigel Jones: Health issues were banned from the trial of course as well.

Douglas Cross: Well this is ridiculous.

Nigel Jones: Health issues were banned.

Douglas Cross: This is the whole point - by choosing that type of charge they automatically allow them to????

Paul Tyler: You mean the "nuisance" charge against The Water Authority. Yes just for everybody 's....yes

Brian Lush: Can I ask the Minister when the investigation of special needs criteria - this affected an area from Crackington Haven to Polzeath not just Camelford itself.

( Hear, hear).

There are other schools in the area that would need to be monitored as well.

( yes - general agreement)

Paul Tyler: And just to add to that - that's an extremely important point - perhaps we should make it again. A lot of people outside this area keep referring to it as "the Camelford Incident", which is very misleading and of course is providing some very misleading information to.. for anybody who is seeking to monitor this issue.

Michael Meacher: I mean how far.. because I'm not familiar with the geography, how far are..

(Audience erupts into laughter as Nigel Jones swiftly hands the Minister a map showing the area affected.)

Nigel Jones: Here is South West Water's own map.

Paul Tyler: That's upside down let's turn it the right way up if we may We're in the centre here in Camelford, which is there and Lowermoor, there and you can see the whole... right up to Boscastle and beyond, a long way up the coast and right down to the Camel estuary.

Michael Meacher: And all supplied from..?

Paul Tyler: From Lowermoor. Now, and what makes it worse, I'm sorry were having to do this little tutorial up here - what makes it worse is that immediately after the incident, the accident itself, the Water Company, the Water Authority was saying that only this immediate area would be affected. So a lot of people out here didn't know for days.

Thyroid lady: We weren't told for two years, and I was ill and didn't know why...and then

Paul Tyler: This is a common experience.

Nigel Jones: Can I just say, it is actually, the, it is one of the most important issues that would help to heal some of the wounds in this area - our social structure, is that the people that have been pooh- harring it, most of the trades people, they are suffering badly enough through the recession etc. it's a farming community, it's a tourism community, we've had a downturn of business for 20 years of slow decline that we hope the Eden Project and other things may help. But, it would be incredibly helpful if the government, or some department of government, were to state nationally that the Camelford / North Cornwall area now has not only the best fresh air in the country, the least populated area of England which is true, but also now the best monitored water in the country, because the confidence is seen from the local standpoint that the tourists out there do not come to Camelford because of da-di-da-di-da. Now if somebody could state that it's a very simple and inexpensive thing to do, it would be gloriously uplifting for everyone in Tintagel, Boscastle, St. Teath etc.

Paul Tyler: I agree with the thrust of what you're saying, I have to say, even in the Minister's presence that a Minister saying that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole population believes them.

Michael Meacher: It actually has the opposite effect.

Nigel Jones: Some department could, some department could.

Paul Tyler: Okay, but hang in there. Look there's a very important issue here. I wonder if any of you who were living in this area at that time could tell me just briefly, just, you know, in rough terms when you actually knew that you were in the area affected - I mean the lady here for example is saying quite rightly and there are others that took 2 years to be told... gentleman here.

Douglas Cross: 3 days

Paul Tyler: 3 Days

Susan Joiner: September

Paul Tyler: September several months after, 2 or 3 months after.

Michael Meacher: Can you say roughly how far away you were from...

Susan Joiner: I live in Rock.

Paul Tyler: She's down here.....

Michael Meacher: And that distance is..

Man: 12

Paul Tyler: No 10. 10 miles.

Michael Meacher: 10 miles, right

Paul Tyler: But I mean you were getting the water within hours, and yet you weren't told for 3 months. This gentleman here...

Dr J. Lunny: Rock is where I live... 2 days later.

Paul Tyler : 2 days later. Woman:

I was St. Teath, and I was 3 days

Paul Tyler: 3 Days

Douglas Cross: Camelford - 7.30 the next morning.

Paul Tyler : Yes, anybody else. This lady said 2 months. Yes

June Hills: Are you saying when did we know we were affected?

Paul Tyler: Yes

June Hills: Well my daughter got up the next morning and she tasted it and she said to me.. "Mum don't put any water in your mouth it burns" - of course I forgot and I did and I only knew because I phoned up,

Paul Tyler: Right, so you weren't actually told, you just discovered, lady here...

Sue Saunders: 4 days

Paul Tyler: 4 days

Woman: I knew the next morning because the water tasted foul, but it was over 2 weeks before anybody...

Paul Tyler: Anybody told you.

Nigel Jones: It was 2 weeks before we were told...

Douglas Cross: 23rd of July.

Paul Tyler: Well you remember I'm sure all of you remember that even the official report said that the information that was given was confusing - I've got the quote somewhere and I don't know... and believe me that was the one really strong point in the whole report - dead accurate - it was very, very confusing.

Douglas Cross: The Water Company...

June Hills: Once somebody rang up and they said "oh it won't hurt you. it's only like drinking Coca-Cola!"

Paul Tyler: If that's the same as Coca-Cola, I warn you against Coca-Cola! Yes please...

Dr. Lunnie: Mr. Meacher said all the facts of the episode were known - one important fact that's not known - I think it has a bearing on the criticism levelled at the Health Authority. The Health Authority this morning were lambasted for failure to provide adequate information or health advice. At that time the Health Authority couldn't have known what had happened, because the Water Authority hadn't actually put the information out, and initially we were told it was a failure in the liming device. The real truth only came out approximately two and a half weeks later after the story was leaked to the press. Somewhere in between the episode and the truth being published, a policy decision must have been made to conceal what happened. And that had an important bearing on the inability and the failure of the Health Authority to give out health advice, and to institute any investigations that might have been done at the time.

Paul Tyler: That's an extremely important point.

Michael Meacher: That IS an extremely important point...

Paul Tyler: From a local GP

Michael Meacher: Are you a local GP?

Nigel Jones: This is Dr. Lunnie from Port Isaac Surgery.

Michael Meacher: Well, would you, would you mind, putting down on paper just what you've told me and the actual dates and evidence, and sending it to me?

Dr. Lunnie: Yes Michael Meacher:

Thank you....... yes

Jenny Thompson: Could I just add to that - the local police I understand from something I was told person to person, volunteered to help South West Water out by going round literally with loud hailers telling people not to drink the water and they were told by the Company on no account were they to do that because they didn't want to cause alarm in the local residents.

Douglas Cross: We were trying to find information and we were told even as the Lowermoor.. (were we called the Lowermoor Liaison Group or something) - we were told by South West Water that they would not release information because it could compromise the Lawrence Report which took 6 weeks to come out. The fact that it leaked to the press on the 23rd of July was an intense embarrassment to the authority. This gentlemen is quite right the Lawrence Report even then suggested that the contamination levels were extremely low, it was only when Ann Irons's water sample was analysed some months later that we found it was 600 and more milligrams per litre, so no Health Authority was given any relevant information about the possible threat from the aluminium because the Water Authority either did not know or did not release to them, the right amount of information or the right quality of information.

Liz Sigmund: Can I add to that. Doug, if you remember, Walter Roberts, you and I and Richard Newman - we asked the local authority, the North Cornwall Authority, if they would please give some money to have the water analysed - they said "we can't afford to, it would be too expensive ", so as a responsible group of citizens we were asking for a very responsible response and we got that "no we can't afford it!"

So the information that was going to and fro was totally inadequate at all points - there was no clinical investigation of the health of the people, and if I may take this point on - I telephoned the Department of Health late in July and I was put on to a Dr. G. K. Matthew - please Michael will you look into this - he's a senior, he was a senior toxicologist at the Department of Health in London and he said to me "I'm going into yet another meeting about Camelford in the next hour, I've been to two recently, I've begged them to send down a medical team, an expert team to see to the health of the people, to take blood samples, urine samples etc., I have been over-ruled. He rang me back again a couple of days later, he said "I was over-ruled again", and he said would I, a lay person with no expertise, write a report for him, he said he wanted it to go to a list of people including the BMA, the Chief Medical Officer of Health - he listed all the people that we were to send, give copies to which we did - we went to London and actually delivered a lot of them by hand. I gave Dr. G. K Matthew a copy of this - I've actually sent a copy to your office - you should have it, and my interim report which detailed all we knew and I then received a letter from the Department of Health saying we will no longer take telephone calls from you.

I tried to contact Dr. Matthew and I was never able to speak to him - a journalist told me he tried to contact him, he said "he's left the Department, nobody knows where he is". Now that was a senior toxicologist inside the Department - on top of that - a letter was sent to the Area Health Authority by a Mr. Waring, a surgeon working in the Department of Health - he said "I have not of course undertaken clinical or laboratory examination of any of those who may have suffered ill effects and have not been in a position to verify any of these clinical reports on water quality data," but he then said "in summary the aluminium concentration would have had no effect other than rendering the water distasteful" - now that letter went to, I suppose, Dr Miles, it went to the area health authority; they circulated it to every GP in this part of Cornwall, including the specialists at Treliske who were then used for the GPs to refer people to his experts, for instance Dr Cootes who is a lung specialist! So all these people had information from this Mr Waring who didn't have access to the actual clinical results of any testing and was told there couldn't be any long term effect - do you wonder there was confusion among the GPs, the patients, everybody concerned, and I find these facts which I have sent on to you, we faxed them yesterday, we actually posted them three weeks ago Mr. Meacher, you can have them from your office I spoke to your secretary I think Richard. You can read what I wrote, at the suggestion of a senior toxicologist in the Department of Health - now if there's not a judicial or public enquiry, there must be an internal enquiry inside the Department of Health as to what the dickens was going on there! The poisons unit, Dr. Virginia Murray, at Guys was also told "oh you don't need to send anybody down because we in the Department of Health are coping."

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